Interview with Ian Miller

On Masks, Charts and History.

When they broke the world in March 2020, and there was nothing but waves of darkness and chaos, I stumbled on a handful of voices, on Twitter, that were my buoys.

Ian Miller’s account was one of those buoys.

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I ended up printing many of his charts, on large A3 sheets and pinning them to the wall in our office in Sydney. There were 6 of us sane souls in that office who appreciated those charts. For the other dozen or so people, I don’t remember ever seeing any of them study the charts.

My favorites were Ian’s Victoria (Melbourne) charts (for example here, here and here).

His comparison charts were simply incredible, and proof positive that a picture is worth millions of words.

I’m convinced that Ian Miller’s work is of historical importance, and I’m honored at the opportunity to interview him and share his work with a larger audience.

With thanks and gratitude to Ian Miller; may your work never be forgotten.

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1. Ian, can you please tell us a bit about your background and what led you to start analyzing and sharing data related to COVID-19 policies?

I came into COVID having worked with data in the past, but most of my career experience was in the entertainment industry, specifically films and music. Obviously, it seems like that’d be an unusual path to getting into COVID data analysis and criticism, but in some ways my prior experience made it easier to communicate with people clearly and succinctly.

I started analyzing data specifically with Los Angeles County, mostly because that’s where I lived at the time. LA County had been one of the first counties in the country to mandate masks and shut everything down, with universal compliance, so I thought, as a local resident, if these measures are ever going to work, surely it would be in LA, right? Thankfully, the public health department made all their data publicly available to download. So I did, and started putting it together on charts, which got noticed by people with bigger profiles than I had. It consistently showed that the measures the “experts” assured us would stop COVID in its tracks, did no such thing. And following the lead of several others who were doing similar work, I started expanding the charts to cover the rest of the country and eventually other countries. All showing the same pattern…none of it worked.

2. How has your work during the pandemic impacted your personal relationships and professional opportunities?

I’ve unfortunately lost several friends, a few of which I’d consider to be close friends. So much of the mask mandate and lockdown hysteria was tied in perfectly to the mindset that your political beliefs make you a good person or bad person. The good people followed the mandates, the bad people didn’t. Criticizing these policies was unacceptable, and the media and authority figures relentlessly reinforced that belief. I’ve also had the opportunity to interact with people I’d never in a million years have interacted with, which has been a tremendous positive. It’s a mixed bag. The thing that strikes me is that those who believed the mandates worked are always the ones to end friendships, while those who acknowledge the reality, that they failed, maintain relationships with people who disagree with them. I think that says a lot.

Professionally, I did get laid off from the job I had when the pandemic started. I’ll never know whether it was related to my COVID work or not. But it wouldn’t surprise me. That said, because of the work I did, I was able to move on to writing professionally, which I’ve enjoyed much more than my old career, in so many ways. I wrote two books, which is not something I’d ever have believed would be possible. I’m extremely grateful for all the people who have signed up for Substack or read the books or followed me on other platforms…it’s been so gratifying and humbling to see people enjoy the work, share it, or use it for themselves.

3. I would say that your charts and analysis have been of global and historical significance in understanding the true impact of COVID-19 policies. How do you feel about a statement like that?

That’s a pretty wild thing to hear! I certainly hope so, that would be wonderful to have contributed something that helped people or was instructive or informative. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but hearing from people in other countries tell me how these charts or analysis helped them or allowed them to convince other people…or took them to school boards or local officials, that’s incredible to hear.

I do hope though that there is some historical preservation of the perspectives that the “team reality” side had and the data we created and shared. Because unfortunately, those who write history books are a near certainty to side with the “we should have locked down harder and worn more masks” crowd. Even though those positions are not backed by science. There’s just too much ego, credentialism, arrogance and ideological conformity out there.

4. When and how did you first realize that the public was not being told the whole truth about the effectiveness of measures like lockdowns and mask mandates?

Pretty early on, I’d say. Definitely by May-June of 2020 it was pretty clear that places that had lockdowns and mask mandates were performing no better than areas without lockdowns and mandates. Sweden being the obvious example, but even in U.S. states, we could see that there was no difference.

But by that time it was too late, because the “experts” and their media partners had created the message that it all worked perfectly, so any dissent was dismissed or labeled as a conspiracy theory.

5. In your writings you highlight how Sweden's less restrictive approach led to better outcomes compared to countries with strict measures. Why do you think this critical information was ignored by mainstream media?

It’s pretty clear that the media had a vested interest in promoting lockdowns and other mandates, for two important reasons. One is that their business skyrocketed during the shutdowns, as people were stuck at home and looking for any information they could get on what was happening. The other is that the media’s political beliefs aligned with the public health establishment and most of the community that loudly called for shutdowns and mandates.

It's not just Sweden, every example that argues against the prevailing COVID wisdom was systematically ignored or incorrectly discussed. They always went to the same group of people for comment; people like Peter Hotez or Leana Wen or Eric Feigl-Ding, or obviously Anthony Fauci, who would handwave Sweden off or just outright lie about it. Because it was so inconvenient for their preferred narrative and explanation.

It got worse over time too, as countries they praised all saw their numbers skyrocket while Sweden’s numbers, particularly with excess deaths, improved relatively speaking. But again, acknowledging that would mean dealing with the ramifications that their allies were wrong. And consequently, that they were wrong. So the media ignored it. And continues to ignore it.

6. Your article "The CDC's Latest Study on Masks is Purposeful Misinformation" exposes serious flaws in the CDC's methodology and conclusions. How do you think such misinformation from public health authorities has affected trust in these institutions?

I don’t think there’s any question that a significant number of people will never trust public health authorities on anything ever again. And it’s their own fault. That article and the study you mention are really remarkable examples of just how far the CDC was willing to go to promote their agenda. It’s an affront to science and should never have been published. But it came to the right conclusion, so they ran with it regardless.

Phil Kerpen told me that the CDC for so long would issue guidance that was generally ignored, so most people just thought of it as a giant waste of money that no one had to listen to. Because of that, there was little oversight or any interest in ensuring it was staffed with competent people. Sure enough, it isn’t. The issue is that they obliterated any credibility they once had, so when they are right about things, which will happen occasionally, even on important things, some people won’t listen. Which could be problematic. At the same time though, there’s no question that the erosion of trust in public health authorities is justified, because of their failures, mistakes and most importantly, the lack of acknowledgement or accountability.

One of the biggest mistakes, if not the biggest, that many politicians or authority figures made during COVID was treating CDC guidance as if it should be law. Obviously that couldn’t be further from the truth.

7. Your first book, "Unmasked: The Global Failure of COVID Mask Mandates," provides a comprehensive look at the ineffectiveness of mask mandates worldwide. What inspired you to write this book, what was the response to it and what was the most surprising finding during your research?

I thought it would be useful to give people looking to get as much information and data on masks as possible, one place to get it. It’s one thing to say, “hey go read two years of Twitter posts” or “read dozens of articles,” but it’s much easier to pick up a book and be able to refer to things quickly and in one format. I had a lot of people give me great advice, especially Michael Betrus, saying that writing the book would give some permanence to the work I’d done, and hopefully he was right.

Generally the response has been great, obviously there are some “credentialism” critics, but it doesn’t take any qualifications to create a chart with pandemic policies on it and show what happened afterwards. Overall though, readers seem to be very happy with it, and it provides a pretty compelling, thorough case against mask mandates with a ton of data and information to back it up.

I knew generally what to expect going into it, but the consistency with which every health agency dismissed masks prior to 2020 was pretty surprising. You’d think there’d be some uncertainty around it; maybe it could work type thing. But everywhere you look, it was essentially masks aren’t going to work. Then they did it anyway. There were also some great Fauci quotes I found that thoroughly undermine his later statements and the actual results.

8. "Illusion of Control", your second book, examines the data and studies used to justify various pandemic policies. What was the most egregious example of flawed data or analysis that you encountered while writing the book?

It’s hard to pick just one, honestly. I think my favorite though was when one writer published an article in The Atlantic about how Germany was beating COVID with N95 masks and vaccine passports, and how the U.S. could be doing so much better if we just followed Germany’s example…and then cases and hospitalizations and every other COVID metric in Germany absolutely exploded just a few weeks later. I mean, you couldn’t have written it any better. Here’s a major media writer specifically saying, everyone in Germany is wearing high quality masks and has to show proof of vaccination everywhere they go, and it’s the specific reason why they’re doing well. And then their numbers skyrocket immediately afterwards. Far higher than most places in the U.S. that had no such mandates.

It encapsulated the media’s atrocious performance, the expert misinformation and the lack of awareness that was commonplace during the pandemic.

9. In "Every Comparison Shows Masks Are Meaningless," you provide numerous examples of how mask mandates have had no significant impact on COVID-19 case rates. Why do you think policymakers continue to push for these measures despite the evidence?

For a few reasons; I think for some it was out of political ideology. The left largely likes to think of themselves as the “party of science,” and “science” said masks work and everyone should wear them. Some kept it going because they wanted to be seen as doing something. Even if they didn’t work, which I think many realized, they believed mask mandates made them look like they were trying and cared about the virus.

Another subset wanted to avoid criticism from the media and the political left. You can look at what they did to Ron DeSantis, the “DeathSantis” moniker, and see what happens if you deviate from the prescribed “expert” plan. Some politicians clearly enjoyed taking additional power, the Gavin Newsoms of the world, who have an authoritarian bent anyway, and weaponized it during COVID.

A few also probably never heard that masks weren’t working, never saw the data and information, just put blind faith in the “experts,” even though it was never earned and the data proved them wrong. Just a mess.

10. The World Health Organization eventually acknowledged that Sweden's approach was largely correct. How did you feel when you saw this validation of what you had been saying all along?

Too little too late, I’d say. The WHO still promotes masks on their Twitter/X feed. They tacitly acknowledged that Sweden’s strategy was a success, but never dealt with the ramifications of what that meant. Lockdowns, masks, vaccine passports; none of it mattered. It was nice to have some level of validation, but for the most part it’s frustration that there hasn’t been a formal acknowledgement of what the WHO, Fauci, CDC, etc. got wrong.  And because they haven’t admitted it, the concern is that many politicians and decision makers still don’t know or accept the truth about COVID policies. It’s frustrating and it leads you to believe that they might try to bring it back at some point, whenever they feel like it.

11. Many of your articles discuss the negative impact of school closures and mask mandates on children. What long-term consequences do you foresee as a result of these policies?

We’re already seeing the consequences with tremendous learning losses. Obviously none of the policymakers cared about the negative impacts of their policies, and ignored that Sweden and other areas kept schools open successfully, with no masking. Teachers unions in the US also played a huge role, and as a very powerful bloc of people with a direct line to the CDC and the president thanks to their political orientation, they were instrumental in ensuring the damage was as long and sustained as possible.

There are still young children who have essentially never been able to leave their homes without a mask, thanks to terrified, misinformed parents. It’s tough to see that, because it makes you wonder how they’ll ever stop. And maybe they won’t, which would be tragic for those children and their futures. We’re going to suffer economically, culturally, and for those who were forced to delay their social or athletic development, those years they lost they can never get back. We’re going to be dealing with the consequences of shutdowns for decades.

12. "Vaccine Passports Might Be The Most Useless Policy in World History" highlights the ineffectiveness of these measures. Why do you think there was such a strong push for vaccine passports despite the lack of evidence supporting their use?

Vaccine passports were the logical extension to masks; obviously good people would get vaccinated, while bad people wouldn’t. It made it easy to separate the good from the bad. The “experts” also led politicians and administrators into believing that the vaccines would prevent transmission, there are a ton of examples I bring up in “Illusion of Control” about it, where media figures or studies or expert statements would make specific claims about vaccine efficacy that were almost immediately proven false.

But much the same way that it was impossible to get them to admit they were wrong about masks, it was, well, actually even harder to get them to admit they were wrong about the vaccines. Especially because the statements they made about the unvaccinated were so hyperbolic and malicious. They demonized anyone who dared to defy them or criticize The Single Most Important Thing You Can Do, so ending the passports soon after they failed would be tacitly acknowledging a mistake. So you had cities and countries that kept them going for months and months after everyone on earth knew the vaccines were useless at stopping infections. CYA, always.

13. Throughout the pandemic, you've faced criticism and censorship for questioning the official narrative. How have you dealt with these challenges, and what motivates you to continue your work?

I try not to let it bother me, mostly because I know the information and analysis I’m presenting is accurate and can be backed up. I made a point to be certain that what I post is correct and sourced, so if people want to criticize me for it, it’s easy to highlight how and why they’re wrong. Censorship is obviously tougher to take, and I’ve written about it in the past, how it affected me. But, to use one of the most popular modern terms, I know that I’m on the right side of history with COVID policies. All I can do is put out the best quality work that I can, provide the best analysis, back it up correctly, and hope for the best. And I believe that that’s what I’ve done the past few years.

14. Looking back on the past few years, what do you think are the most important lessons we should learn from the COVID-19 pandemic and the global response to it?

I think the importance and power of groupthink, the fact that qualifications and credentials aren’t actually that valuable in certain areas, that ideology will always come first for some people, and that no matter how often they are conclusively wrong, power structures will always close ranks to protect themselves instead of admitting mistakes.

We saw it with the lab leak and many other pandemic policies; Fauci and his group lied about the potential origins of COVID, worked together to write essentially a fake paper to protect their profession from scrutiny, then used the media to launder it and create a consensus that never should have existed. I mean, when you think about that, it’s incredible how little accountability there’s been. But it indicates my point; they come first, truth comes last.

Another lesson I learned was an unfortunate one; most people will comply with whatever they’re told, no matter how absurd or disconnected from the evidence. There were very few organized efforts to push back on masks or vaccine passports. None from young people. Most people will just do what they’re told, and I had assumed there would be more who said, “wait a second, this doesn’t make sense, why am I being forced to wear a mask to walk to the table at this restaurant, then I can take it off.” Or “do you guys really think standing six feet apart stops viruses, because if so, you’re insane.” None of that really happened. And it was very disappointing.

15. What projects are you currently working on, and how can people stay informed about your latest research and analysis?

I’m writing full time now, and I do most of my COVID work and analysis on my Substack, “Unmasked.” Obviously the books are still out there, but most of my new COVID work is on Substack or posted on my Twitter/X profile, which is @ianmSC.

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