Interview with Dawn Lester

The Book That Sealed In the Goodness

I found What Really Makes You Ill? late in my virology awakening. My journey through this territory began with Dr Tom Cowan, then moved to Drs Sam and Mark Bailey, then Dr Andrew Kaufman, then Alec Zeck, then Mark Gober. Each contributed something essential. Each opened doors. But it was Dawn Lester’s work that sealed in the goodness. What had been a collection of powerful but separate insights finally became a coherent whole—a comprehensive framework I could stand on. The book is now one of my most important resources, a text I return to regularly and recommend without hesitation.

Dawn Lester and her co-author David Parker spent over a decade researching and writing this book. Neither came from medicine. Lester’s background is accountancy; Parker’s is electrical engineering. This turns out to be a significant advantage. They weren’t trained into the assumptions that structure conventional medical thinking. They carried no institutional loyalties, no professional identity tied to defending the paradigm. They approached the subject the way investigators should—following evidence wherever it led, identifying contradictions within the mainstream literature itself, applying logic rather than ideology. The result is a 700-page investigation that systematically dismantles the foundations of modern medicine: germ theory, vaccination, pharmaceutical intervention. At the same time, it documents what actually does make people ill—the environmental toxins, industrial chemicals, nutritional deficiencies, and harmful exposures that the medical establishment largely ignores while chasing invisible pathogens.

The subtitle states it plainly: Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong. This isn’t overstatement. The book makes a comprehensive case that disease doesn’t happen the way we’ve been told, that the medical system doesn’t understand health, and that we have far more control over our own wellbeing than we’ve been led to believe. It’s both a dismantling and a reconstruction—not just exposing what’s false, but pointing toward what actually supports human health.

What strikes me about Dawn’s work is her approach. She shares information rather than dispensing advice. She asks questions rather than launches attacks. She models the kind of civil, curious inquiry that this subject desperately needs. She’s also honest about the limits of her own knowledge—she emphasizes that she’s still learning, still refining her understanding, still open to new information. This intellectual humility, combined with the rigour of her research, makes her a trustworthy guide through territory that can otherwise feel overwhelming or contentious.

Since the book’s publication in 2019, Dawn’s work has continued to evolve. She now writes regularly on Substack and hosts a podcast called Dawn of Discernment, exploring territory the book opened up—consciousness, language, the emotional and spiritual dimensions of health. She’s gone deeper into the non-physical aspects of illness: how our thoughts, beliefs, and suppressed emotions manifest in the body, and how the words we use shape our experience of health. This interview captures where her thinking stands now.

For those who began questioning during 2020 and are still looking for solid ground, this book provides it. For those who sense something is deeply wrong with the medical system but haven’t yet found a framework that explains why, this is where I’d point you. And for those ready to take back agency over their own health—to stop outsourcing that responsibility to a system that doesn’t understand what health actually is—Dawn’s work offers both the intellectual foundation and the practical orientation to begin that journey.

With thanks to Dawn Lester.

What Really Makes You Ill?: Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong: Lester, Dawn, Parker, David

---

Support Independent Research

This work remains free because paid subscribers make it possible. If you find value here, consider joining them.

What paid subscribers get: Access to the Deep Dive Audio Library — 170+ in-depth discussions (30-50 min each) exploring the books behind these essays. New discussions added weekly. That’s 100+ hours of content for less than the price of a single audiobook.

[Upgrade to Paid – $5/month or $50/year]

Get in touch Essay ideas, stories, or expertise to share: unbekoming@outlook.com

---

1. Dawn, please tell us about your background and what first led you to question conventional medical explanations. Your journey began in accountancy rather than medicine—how did that shape your approach to investigating health claims?

I studied accountancy because I’d been told in school that I was ‘good at maths,’ which is not exactly great careers advice. I can’t say accountancy was my calling. I already had a sense of being somewhat logical before studying accountancy, so those studies didn’t form my ability to investigate; a skill I’m continually honing and improving. The journey into questioning the medical system began when David Parker and I were working on expanding our study of the nature of reality with a view to turning a course we’d developed into a book. One obvious aspect of ‘reality’ involves our bodies and health, so we wanted to find ways to better understand and discuss how that all worked. The first clue for me came from Bruce Lipton’s book, The Biology of Belief, in which he explained how cells respond to their environment. I had read Lynne McTaggart’s book, The Field, in connection with my study of the nature of reality. I discovered, however, that she’d also written a book about health, What Doctors Don’t Tell You. In that book, she refers to Dr Robert Mendelsohn and his book Confessions of a Medical Heretic, which I read in 2009. Reading these two books was the very first step in the journey of discovering that there are problems within the medical system.

2. You spent over a decade researching your book with co-author David Parker. What was the most significant discovery that shifted your own understanding during that process?

There was no single discovery that was the most significant. It was continuing to find evidence from various sources that illness does not happen the way we’ve been told; also, that medicines don’t cure and vaccines don’t prevent ‘disease’. Having already studied the nature of reality for a while, I was probably much more open-minded to what I was discovering than I probably would have been had I started looking into the health system first, although my own experience did play a part in my approach. Although I may not have seen it clearly at the time, I was definitely on a ‘journey’. After the initial discoveries we’d made about the problems, we put together some of the main points and wrote a short book on the topic, Why Germs Don’t Make You Ill and Drugs Can’t Cure You, which was published at the beginning of 2010. We knew we wanted to take a deeper dive and had originally intended to publish a more detailed book soon afterwards. However, once I’d started looking at what was actually involved, it was clear that the book needed to be much more comprehensive and that meant it was going to take a lot longer to compile all the information.

3. The title of your book makes a bold claim: that everything we thought we knew about disease is wrong. For readers unfamiliar with your work, what is the central argument about what actually makes people ill?

The central argument of the book is threefold really; that illness does not happen the way we’re told; that the medical system does not understand health; and that there are many different factors that can adversely affect our health. What that means is that we have much more control over our own health than we’ve been led to believe. The point of the subtitle, Why Everything You thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong is to highlight that ‘disease’ is not an entity; that there are no ‘diseases’ out there that attack us because of ‘germs,’ ‘genes’ or ‘bad luck’. This seems to be one of the points that a lot of people still find hard to comprehend. It is also the key to people taking responsibility for their own health.

4. You’ve identified what you call “affirming the consequent” as a key logical fallacy in mainstream health narratives—the idea that if a virus causes disease and I’m ill, therefore a virus caused my illness. How do you encourage people to recognize these patterns in the information they encounter daily?

There are many patterns that people can find in the mainstream information once they start looking from a skeptical perspective, one that keeps them curious rather than trusting in the mainstream narrative. One pattern I discovered was the existence of anomalies and contradictions within the mainstream information. I love finding them; they are my ‘gotcha’ moments. This is definitely a pattern that people can look for themselves. Start with this question in mind: Where are the mainstream narratives making different claims about the same situation? For example, in my latest Substack article, I referred to the claim that the varicella vaccine reduces the incidence of ‘complications’. The first dose of the vaccine is given at 12 months, yet the greatest risk of complications for babies is said to occur before they reach their first birthday. These statements are clearly contradictory. The affirming the consequent fallacy works because most people fail to question the original assumption. The form of that fallacy is that If P, then Q. Q therefore P. In the example you gave, if a virus causes disease, I’ll be ill. I’m ill, therefore a virus made me ill. The whole concept is based on the validity of the original assumption, i.e. the claim that a virus causes disease in the first place. But that has never been proven. It’s time for people to become more comfortable with asking questions and not taking what we’re told at face value, which are the first steps. I’d also encourage people to keep an open mind to all information, even if they’re finding it within the ‘alternative’ community, as there is misleading information there too.

5. When examining media coverage of health scares—whether seasonal flu campaigns or newer concerns—what are the red flags you look for that suggest propaganda rather than genuine information?

Any media story that relates to some form of ‘infectious disease’ I know from the outset will be propaganda, although I know that stories about any type of ‘disease’ will not be based on truth about such conditions, because the medical system admits to not knowing their causes. It’s rare that there will be much in the way of ‘genuine information’ to be gleaned from such stories, but there will often be something hidden in the story that is true. That’s how they keep people confused. I usually scan the story to see what’s being promoted, whether it’s a new vaccine or a new drug for example. This almost inevitably suggests to me that there’s a strong element of fearmongering in the article, possibly with the intention of encouraging people to be ‘tested’ for whatever ‘disease’ they’re focussed on and then submitting themselves to the recommended intervention, whether a treatment or vaccine.

6. One thing you emphasize is the burden of proof. You’ve said that questioning a claim doesn’t require providing a replacement theory. Can you explain why this distinction matters, particularly when someone is told they’re wrong for questioning medical orthodoxy?

The reason it’s so important to understand that the burden of proof lies with those who propose a theory, is because failure to appreciate that point means that people simply trust the ‘experts’ as the ‘authority’, which is another logical fallacy. This is of course what the mainstream system wants us to do; to simply trust them and not ask questions. But this is why we’re in the situation we’re in, so we need to do things differently if we want to get out of it! This is why the Robert Mendelsohn book was such a great starting point for me. He showed why he referred to the medical system as ‘the church of modern medicine’ and explained it was because it required our faith. He said if we asked why enough times, we’d soon reach the ‘chasm of faith’. I’m sure that helped me with the confidence to keep questioning the standard narrative, from a place of curiosity, not aggression. We do of course need to have some analysis skills to assess what we’re told and know how to ask further questions, but we can all hone those skills. I’d say that familiarity with a few of the main logical fallacies would be very useful additional tools to have. I’d recommend my two podcast episodes with Dr Jordan Grant as useful resources for understanding logical fallacies and critical thinking. Also, it’s important to know that, as you’ve mentioned, ‘falsification does not require replacement’. In other words, we do not need to provide a replacement theory before we can challenge the existing theory or paradigm. We do, however, have to be careful that we are not making positive claims ourselves that we cannot support by evidence, otherwise we’d be committing the same fallacies that we’re exposing. The core point about questioning is that it’s natural. After all, true ‘science’ is about discovery, it’s not dogma, which means it needs to remain open to new information.

7. Your research has evolved significantly from the scientific critique in your book toward exploring consciousness, emotions, and what you call the non-physical aspects of health. What convinced you that the ultimate causes of illness weren’t just physical toxins or deficiencies, but something deeper?

What Really Makes You Ill does refer to ‘stress’ as one of the factors that affect our health. My recent research has taken me deeper into this aspect and helped me realise it is a much more significant factor than what we tend to regard as ‘stress’, although that does not negate what is in the book. The more I research the topic, the more I realise it probably requires a whole book of its own to cover it adequately. We are all different and so the combination of factors that affect our health is different for each of us. For some people, the ‘physical factors’ may be more significant than for others. We all need to consider and reduce our exposures to the ‘physical factors’, if we wish to improve our health. As I’ll explain in your question about my own ‘cancer journey’ back in the mid-1990s, I was aware even then that my ‘mindset’ was relevant to my recovery, so it’s not been a recent revelation for me, although I have been focusing much more on this aspect during the past 4 years.

8. You’ve discussed how suppressed emotions can manifest as physical symptoms, referencing Dr. John Sarno’s work showing that around 70% of back pain patients had no structural problems. How does someone begin to explore whether their own symptoms might have emotional roots?

The evidence to support the idea that our thoughts, beliefs, emotions, etc. play a role in our health can be seen in the placebo and nocebo effects, which are recognised phenomena and ones I discovered fairly early in my study of the nature of reality. The more I’ve looked into various ideas about the causes of illness conditions, my ‘library fairy’, who always finds me the right book at the right time - or the right website at the right time - has helped me find many books that show the importance of the ‘non-physical’ aspects, Dr John Sarno’s work being just one example. Two other books on the topic are Bessel van der Kolk’s book, The Body Keeps the Score and Gabor Maté’s book When the Body Says No. For people to start exploring the possible emotional roots of any health issue, I would suggest they need to at least be open to the idea that this is possible. They may like to ask themselves some simple questions - always from a place of curiosity rather than blame. It can be easy to ask, ‘why did this happen to me’ but that gets us nowhere, except stuck in a kind of victim mentality of things ‘happening to us.’ If people are open to a more spiritual perspective, they may consider that, at another level of their being, ‘they’ have chosen a certain set of experiences in this life, which helps us look at these events as opportunities to discover more about ourselves. This is a huge topic of course. It does, however, show us that just by changing our perspective, we can make some changes in our experiences.

9. You speak carefully about the power of language—how words function almost like spells, and how “I am” statements give instructions to the body. What practical shifts in language would you suggest for someone who’s been given a medical label?

This follows perfectly from the previous question. Our thoughts usually come to us in the form of words, which makes awareness of our thoughts helpful when trying to work out what we’re dealing with in terms of the ‘non-physical’ aspects of health. It may seem like a cliché, but we are taught to ‘spell’ words at school, so to that extent, words are definitely spells. But that’s not to make it all scary. The point is to show how we have more power over our own experiences than we’ve been made to believe. The starting place for all this is to consider our own self-talk. That is where many of us may find that we have made a habit of talking to ourselves in a pretty mean way; we may let our inner critic take over. But there is almost always a reason for that - it may be because it’s an echo of a voice we heard when we were young that made us feel unworthy. Or that we had to ‘play small’, so our ‘inner critic’ will now berate us if we stand up or speak out. This self-talk extends to the labels we give ourselves, such as the ‘I am…’ type of statement that the body reads as an instruction, so “I am angry”, makes anger one’s identity and so it’s no surprise that the person will stay angry. Changing this statement to “anger is arising” (a change of wording offered to us by my good friend Dani Katz) takes it away from an identity and an instruction to the body. This also applies to medical labels, often called ‘diagnoses’, although there are no ‘diseases’ as such. So that’s one place people can start - to realise that there are no distinct entities called ‘diseases’ that attack them for no obvious reason. I must emphasise here that I am not denying people have issues with their health nor that they experience symptoms, because that is definitely not the case. The experience of symptoms is not the same thing as the ‘label’ given to those symptoms. By owning the ‘label’, the body will hold on to it and be defined by it. Another book I’ve discovered provides an analysis of various organs and systems within the body, as well as various ‘conditions’, and matches them to a variety of emotional and psychological issues and also suggests different questions to ask. I use this book with caution because it is based on the idea that ‘diseases’ exist as described, but I have found that it provides a useful starting point for people who have issues within a certain part of their body and that can help them understand the emotional component.

10. You’ve noted that disease labels can become identity when people say “my condition” or “I am diabetic.” How does this linguistic ownership affect someone’s ability to heal, and what’s the alternative?

That is a great point about ‘linguistic ownership’ because making the ‘disease’ one’s identity will hinder the ability to heal, because they are continually telling their body that they ‘have’ that disease. But ‘healing’ is more than just the absence of symptoms. The etymology of the word ‘heal’ means to make whole, so it is not just about stopping the symptoms, which is all the medical system aims to do. Real healing requires us to look at all aspects of our lives, which include the mental, emotional, psychological and spiritual aspects, which is why it takes a whole lifetime to do that! It’s an ongoing journey for all of us throughout our lives. We can of course make improvements to increase our vitality, our life force. The way to approach this may be to take time out to sit quietly and ask ourselves questions about what we’re going through. For anyone at the very beginning of this journey, that may sound bizarre and ‘woo woo’ even, because it runs directly counter to the mainstream approach. But I’d ask how successful the mainstream approach has been for the past 150 years in improving health. The statistics about worsening health speak for themselves! Sitting still and asking oneself questions will not cause any harm and may well reveal useful insights.

11. Many people trust their doctors as the ultimate authority on health matters. What would you say to someone who finds the idea of questioning medical expertise uncomfortable or even frightening?

I totally understand that many people will find the idea of questioning their doctor outrageous, at first anyway. Although I don’t like telling people what they ‘should’ do, I would highly recommend that questioning is not done in a challenging way; that’s not the best approach as it will encourage defensiveness in the doctor. Prepare questions beforehand, so you aren’t caught off-guard. Take a notepad and write down the answers. Be prepared to ask for the correct spelling of any terms you aren’t familiar with. That doesn’t mean you’re stupid, you just don’t have access to the medical terminology that the doctor was made to memorise during medical school. If your doctor becomes uncooperative or even aggressive, contemplate looking for a new doctor who will be on your ‘side’; after all, it’s your health! I think it’s a question of people becoming more confident of taking their health back into their own hands and this happens at different rates for each of us. Some people may not want to start that journey. And some people may come to the realisation that they don’t need a doctor at all.

12. Your views contradict much of what’s considered scientific consensus. How do you handle criticism and disagreement, particularly from people with medical credentials?

I’ve experienced very little in the way of direct criticism from people with medical credentials. I was fortunate to connect with Dr Andrew Kaufman in March 2020 when he interviewed David and me for his YouTube channel. He was gracious enough to say that he essentially agreed with What Really Makes You Ill. His support was far more profound than any criticism I’d received. I’m pleased to say I’m still friends with Andy and have a number of other friends who are qualified doctors. What Really Makes You Ill has also been cited in a number of other books written by outspoken doctors. Although we may have differing views on certain aspects, our core message is essentially the same.

13. You’ve mentioned that your own cancer diagnosis in the 1990s was a wake-up call that involved more than just physical changes. Without giving advice, can you share how approaching that experience shaped your understanding of what healing actually requires?

I was aware at the time that my experience of a cancer ‘diagnosis’ was a ‘wake up call’ for me about my life. I was pretty miserable, even though on the outside my life probably looked like I ought to have been happy. The main points for me were that I started making myself aware of what I needed to ‘change’ so I could experience a more satisfying life. I took certain actions regarding awareness of the food I ate for one example. I also realised I had to change my approach to life. I had a persistent though that “I wanted to do something useful with my life”. I’m not saying what I was doing wasn’t ‘useful’ in some way, but I felt there was something ‘more’ I could do - and that ‘something’ did not involve accountancy, that’s for sure! I finally realised that I had to make a very large change to my personal circumstances, which led to my initiating a divorce from the man I was married to. Even though I didn’t fully understand it at the time, I needed to make a start on a new journey. And that was the journey that has led me to where I am now. I cannot give advice on this aspect, we’re all on a unique journey and are travelling on different paths, so what was right for me may not be right for someone else.

14. For someone feeling overwhelmed by all the information about toxins, propaganda, and institutional failures, what simple first steps would you suggest for taking back agency over their own health and wellbeing?

It’s easy to feel overwhelmed with all the information we have access to, not just in the mainstream but also the alternative media and alternative ‘healthcare’ community. The simplest thing is for people to perhaps ask themselves what is their priority. Then ask what one step can I take today? It’s important to recognise that taking simple steps can have profound effects. Also, make sure you celebrate small steps and small achievements, not just the ‘big goals’, although big goals are not always helpful as they tend to fuel the feeling of overwhelm because there seems to be so much to do. It’s good to remember that wanting better for yourself is a sign of self-love, which itself will support a cascade of new feelings of self-worth that will lead to more actions to support that feeling.

15. What are you currently exploring in your work, and where can readers follow your ongoing research and connect with your ideas?

Substack is the main outlet for my work. I’m continuing to write articles with a main focus on health, but I’m interested in many other topics and plan to write about them as my research and study progresses. I’m also continuing to produce my podcast, which I’m thrilled to announce is moving to Chris Mathieu’s Forbidden Knowledge Network with effect from this month. At the moment, I’m producing a maximum of 2 or 3 podcast episodes a month because of another project that requires a significant amount of my time at the moment. I’ll be sharing details of that in the not-too-distant future.

My Substack:

My Podcast: https://dawnlester.substack.com/podcast

My Odysee: https://odysee.com/@Dawn-Lester:3

My Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dawnlester183/

My Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DawnofDiscernment

Forbidden Knowledge Network: https://forbiddenknowledge.news/

---

Support Independent Research

This work remains free because paid subscribers make it possible. If you find value here, consider joining them.

What paid subscribers get: Access to the Deep Dive Audio Library — 170+ in-depth discussions (30-50 min each) exploring the books behind these essays. New discussions added weekly. That’s 100+ hours of content for less than the price of a single audiobook.

[Upgrade to Paid – $5/month or $50/year]

Get in touch Essay ideas, stories, or expertise to share: unbekoming@outlook.com

Bitcoin: 3Q6BK8x8zjoPaXykQggzvoJxg5FiEbkb3U

Ethereum: 0x4CB0d39d8466a34609318FC1B003B745893788b3

New Biology Clinic

For those of you looking for practitioners who actually understand terrain medicine and the principles we explore here, I want to share something valuable. Dr. Tom Cowan—whose books and podcasts have shaped much of my own thinking about health—has created the New Biology Clinic, a virtual practice staffed by wellness specialists who operate from the same foundational understanding. This isn’t about symptom suppression or the conventional model. It’s about personalized guidance rooted in how living systems actually work. The clinic offers individual and family memberships that include not just private consults, but group sessions covering movement, nutrition, breathwork, biofield tuning, and more. Everything is virtual, making it accessible wherever you are. If you’ve been searching for practitioners who won’t look at you blankly when you mention structured water or the importance of the extracellular matrix, this is worth exploring. Use discount code “Unbekoming” to get $100 off the member activation fee. You can learn more and sign up at newbiologyclinic.com